Window Quarterly Vol. I, No. 4, January 1990 Copyright 1990 [Permission is granted to use, print, reproduce this article provided the following acknowledgment is given: From Window Quarterly 1, 4 (1990); ACRAG c. 1990. *** Wounded in the Jungle An interview with an Ex-Armenian Priest Interview conducted by R. Panossian Note: Upon the requests of the interviewee, a former married priest, we have kept his identity anonymous. Q. Can you give us a brief introduction about yourself? A. I have been educated both oversees and here in this country and have graduate and post-graduate degrees. I have been involved in our Armenian community life in this country for the past thirty years. . .. Instead of speaking about myself, I will concentrate mainly on two close friends of mine who went to school with me oversees, namely at the Seminary in Antelias, where they were ordained celibate priests. Both of them quit and got married. I knew them while they were priests in this country and was very close to them. I am close friends with them even after they left the priesthood. I also know some others who quit the priesthood in the last so many years, whom I have seen also since they became laymen. However, I will concentrate on my two good friends, with whom I have associated both before and after their priesthood in the Armenian Orthodox Church or rather Armenian Apostolic Church. Parenthetically, we should say Apostolic rather than Orthodox because some Armenians, unfortunately, misinterpret the term orthodox by voiding the term from its original meaning. Q. What was it that drew these priests or individuals into the Church in the first place? A. I know these ex-priests because I went to school with them in Antelias. They were in Antelias because it was one of the best secondary schools at the time. Obviously this was not the only reason. There were other reasons too: poverty, which was a terrible fact at that time, that is 35-40 years ago in the Middle East. Hence, these young people, at the age of 13 or so were in the Seminary because it was a good school, good discipline, away from some of the dangers of the outside world and the parents liked that. And then poverty got them into this school. Later on as they went through the Seminary, they were brainwashed to become celibate priests. This is how my two friends became celibate priests; others also went through the same process. The brainwashing took place during the six or seven years in the Seminary. It was done through various methods. Primarily, these young souls at the age of 13, 14, or 15 up to the age of 16 or 17 were constantly brainwashed to believe that "devotion to your Armenian nation" was a big attraction. This is called ad hominem in Latin, [i.e. a form of argument that rests on prejudice rather than on proof, designed to influence feelings rather than intellect]. There were many other ways ad hominem, great people, teachers, both clergy and lay, were able to convince these young souls to take the vow of celibacy. So ultimately, it was a way out... an exit out of a "no exit" life. Hence they went into the priesthood. After ordination, they stayed in the monastery for a while, though I think they should have stayed longer. Perhaps they should have stayed for another 20 years until they reached the age of 40, so that they were more prepared and mature, emotionally, intellectually and otherwise. . . maybe we'll come back to this question later on. So they stayed in the Seminary for a while, some of them went and studied in colleges and universities and others went to Europe to study. My two friends continued their studies and eventually became Vartabeds and came to the United States. (I do not wish to delve further in respect of their anonymity.) After some years oversees, they came to the United States, however they had no parish experience. One of them came to New York, a good priest with many capabilities, but unfortunately young, in his 20's, and there he is in New York and he is in his parish. It is difficult to say what attracted them to the Church. Perhaps some devotion to the Armenian nation and the Armenian Cause, because they were trained in that area for many years. Something like eighteen hours a day and 365 days a year. The brainwashing took place with all the arguments, one of them being the service to the Armenian nation plus the fact that this was a better way of life than being a shoe repairman, or being hungry on the street. Obviously, all these were the wrong reasons to become a priest. I know these people, I talked with them and I was a part of them during our years in the Seminary. Q. Was there a "payback" for the education they received? A. Well, they did serve the Armenian Church. But then, later on we will see what will happen and why they will quit. They went into the priesthood because it was a way out. I don't think there was much devotion or calling by God. Not in the cases of many of these people that I know. There may be individuals who had the calling to serve God later on, for example Vazken Catholicos of Etchmiadzin and Torkom Srpazan of Jerusalem. These two individuals have shown true devotion and calling. There may be others but let us suffice with these two examples. Going back to my two friends, I don't think there was any real calling. When the time came, as we say in Armenian "Yerpvor tanagu vosgoreen hasav" [when the knife reached the bone], when they were cornered and the going got tough, they could not be tough enough. So they said, "Alright, I can't take it any more." Q. Were these two celibate priests? A. Yes, both were celibate priests. Here, I don't want to comment on married priests. They have different motivations in life, and I have to confess that many of them fail as a married priest, or let's say most of them. I know a married priest who is successful and he became a married priest as an adult only after having succeeded in life, in general. Q. What are your thoughts on the age of ordination? A. Both of my friends were ordained between the ages of 19 & 21, so I will concentrate on this rather than on those who have chosen celibate priesthood at a mature age. My friends were ordained priests, apeghas , under certain circumstances. The brainwashing that we mentioned earlier, had made them think that devotion to the Armenian nation was in itself a duty or calling by God. It was an artificial calling by God, dictated by the teachers, professors and the other priests and the ordaining bishop. It seems that most of them went into it because they found an easy way of life... to serve the Armenian nation and the Armenian Church. They couldn't do anything else. Their years of training, their whole teenage years were spent in the seminary. There was no way out. If they had left the seminary, they needed to start from zero in the outside free world. These were the circumstances in which these young people were ordained. Q. Were the assignments of these priests on a parish or a diocesan level? A. They were ordained as priests and stayed in the monastery for some years. While in the monastery, they assumed teaching assignments or administrative duties within the monastery. Some of them even went to a university nearby or were able to gain further knowledge. But eventually, they ended up leaving the monastery and going into a parish. One of my friends was assigned directly to parish ministry and that killed him because a) he was not ready, b) the parish was not ready. Let me explain the second reason. Although there are very respectable and honorable people among the Armenians who can treat their clergyman with enough respect and at least tactfully, the ones who consciously hurt the priest are the most dangerous. Although there are people in the Armenian Church who are Christian people, there are also those people who happen to be Hokapartzoos [parish council] or Yerespokhans [diocesan delegates] of the parish. These people are not deserving to hold these positions in the church and it is such people who hurt the priest the most. They hurt the priest so much and they band together for numerous reasons. These priests were not ready to take this kind of a blow, this kind of abuse, to a point that priesthood became too narrow. They couldn't survive because they were not ready. Well, one might ask, why weren't they ready? Because there wasn't enough preparation before ordination and there wasn't enough time to mature. For example, they should have taken more pastoral theology courses. They should have had tools or weapons to work with. They should have had courses and training that would teach them to survive within thorns and within a jungle--the Armenian Church. Figuratively speaking, a jungle where there are many dangerous and wild animals . . . there are tamed animals also. There are animals that would eat the priest up. There were such cases, there have been and will continue to be such cases. A friend of mine would say that the profession or the business of a priest is of the road where it is full of thorns, rocks and so forth . . . It's not an easy road. These priests were told that it was an easy, rosy road. They were not prepared for the rough conditions of the road, so that when the going got tough, they could take it. These priests could not take it because they did not have thick skin. You see, a priest should probably be sensitive, sensible, understanding . . . all that, plus at the same time, have a very, very thick skin, so that the people in the jungle wouldn't be able to hurt him with their words, their insults. They wouldn't be able to insult a human being who has been raised very sensitive and fragile since the day he went to the seminary at the age of 13. Q. Are you saying that the priest is supposed to have the right answer for everybody despite how he feels? A. The priest should be loving and all merciful and all forgiving and at the same time have such a tough skin that when those people come to hurt him, he would be protected. It is not easy to develop a sensitive spirit and mind and then face the dangerous people in the jungle. Q. Do you think that a parish assignment was a wrong assignment for these priests? A. Yes, that was a mistake, being assigned to a parish without preparation. Q. So then, if they were not assigned to a parish could they have been cultivated as better leaders in other areas? A. They would have remained in the monastery, teaching or doing administrative work. Hence, by the time they reached the age forty, they would have developed a kind of balance between compassion and the proper skills needed to survive in a parish. It is very difficult to be so compassionate, to be an embodiment of Christian virtues and survive in troubled waves of parish life. These priests could not survive. When the going gets though, you have to be tough. You can not be a Gomidas Vartabed if you are in Turkey. If you are like Gomidas Vartabed and so sensitive, so humane and so compassionate and then the Turks do to his people what they did . . . then you go crazy, you burst and you die. You die and live as a mad person all your life like Gomidas Vartabed did. Why do you think Gomidas went crazy? It's because he was not able to face man's inhumanity to man. Our parish priests were not ready and are not ready to face man's inhumanity to man. Parishioners, parish council, delegates, etc. going out and insulting him and hurting him all the way to his bones. Now this is real . . . there are real things like this in our parishes. When people or parishioners look at a priest and indirectly insult him by saying, "Son what drove you into the priesthood? You're not blind, neither lame nor deaf; you are a complete human being physically. How come you went into the priesthood? Aren't they saying, "I pity you my son, why did you go into the priesthood? You could go and beg or drive a bus and make a living." Is that why he went into the priesthood? Of course these were not the only reasons that these two priests quit. Nevertheless, there are people in our parishes who have no right to call themselves Armenians or Christians. Not at all. These people do not even know they are hurting the priest. The animal does not know that he is a dangerous animal in the jungle. They hurt people left and right, but they are there for their business, to promote their own self and business in the parish church. And when one day the parish priest faces these people, they "poison" him. Unfortunately, there are many of these in the Armenian parishes. Again, these priests were not ready to face these realities. Q. Rather than resigning why didn't these priest ask for reassignment? A. Because, wherever they turned they would have faced the same situation, the same jungle. As I said, though there were other reasons, they quit primarily for two reasons: the parish was too "wild" to survive and they weren't ready to live in such environment. Perhaps, reassignment might have worked better, but in the case of these two, they said, "Good-bye! Let others fight in this jungle . . . I quit." Q. What do you think the Church should do or should have done to better prepare parish priests? A. Well, that's why I thought Torkom Srpazan went to Jerusalem. Probably to do his best in preparing one or two better priests. The demands are many; we do need better priests. In order to prepare them, we need to keep them in the seminary for a longer period of time. We need to give them higher education, college or university, before they are ordained into the priesthood. They need to know how to survive in a society. They need to know the tools to survive in parishes, the kinds of parishes that I described earlier. One day a young priest asked an older priest how should he survive, the older priest said, "Look, you have to be both blind and deaf in order to survive well in a society like this." Both of your eyes should be blind not to see some of the things that you see as a parish priest, or as a holy person, both your eyes and ears. At a moment's notice, you should be wise enough to make yourself completely deaf and completely blind and then wise enough to absorb the sticking attacks of your parishioners. In order to do that you need some maturity. You need not only university education, theological education and pastoral theology, but also skills that teach you how to survive in a society. This education and training should take place in the seminary at first, not in the parish. So you prepare yourself until the age of thirty or older and then you serve and practice some of your skills in the monastery. Then maybe at the age of forty you may be assigned to a parish. The two priest that we mentioned, if they had been prepared until the age of forty and then assigned to a parish, they would not have quit. The case is the same with many other classmates of mine who were ordained celibate priests and then quit. Of course the age is only a relative point. There may be a turning point or some mature faster at the age of thirty or thirty five, but the preparation is crucial. Otherwise, you will be burned out and you will quit. Q. What should the parishes do? A. Well, the parishes should see that those one or two percent of ill-willed people are not permitted to participate in the ongoing life of the parish. These individuals should not be permitted to come forward and serve as parish council or delegates and then at the end destroy the priest, both with their words and deeds. There are other things that the parishes can do in order to show love and respect to their priest. I would say that 50% or more of the people in the parishes should learn how to be reasonable and cultivated Armenian Christians. In reality there is a lack of this. The rest fall into the other percentage of the parishioners who are neither true Armenians nor true Christians. It is in this kind of a milieu that the young Armenian priest finds himself. He finds himself among people who might not even believe in the church, but are there for their own reasons, for their own business. Perhaps to find a bride for their son or a husband for their daughter. This is why it is imperative that a priest is aware of these situations and comes to a parish with a wider perspective. It is only then that he might move more correctly and not be burned out. These factors should be considered when preparing young people for the priesthood. Q. How should the priest be prepared in the United States? A. It is a very difficult road. Of course there have been educated people, with masters degree and above who have gone into the celibate priesthood, but those are the exception. In the United States, until we have a good monastery or seminary, and until we have parishes with better Armenians and better Christians, we will not be able to prepare priests very easily. If the groundwork is not there, why should a person go into the priesthood? After getting a bachelors degree in a given field, why priesthood? What is there for a priest? God's calling?...What calling? In a parish community like ours, do you think there would be people who would want to go into the priesthood? Of course, I do not wish to hurt the deacons or the seminarians who are going into the priesthood, maybe they have God's calling. But the people that I am talking about are the people that I know do not have the calling. Is it because the Turks killed our parents, why . . . why? Having described our parishes, what reason is there? Is God calling them at the age of 20 or 21 or is somebody brainwashing them, or is it that the world is too tough and they have the easiest way out in the priesthood? Each priest or deacon will have to answer these questions for themselves. If it is God's calling, then I challenge them to prepare themselves properly. Q. Can you make a brief comparison between the life of these individuals as priests and life as laymen? A. Well, life as a priest brought them to the end of the rope. Another problem of these celibate priests was loneliness and the need for companionship and so on. Thus, the lack of preparation and the need for companionship lead them to "failure," and they quit. I have in mind a half a dozen educated people who, under the circumstances I described, left the priesthood. Now as a layman, they learned their trade and they are doing quite well. As a priest they had 602 headaches and they had to speak 601 different languages. As a layman now they have just one language and one family, hard work and existence. These ex-priests that I know are still involved in Armenian life, but at their free will. Either as a writer or some other capacity . . . they come and go. They are not very active in the church...none of them are Sunday School superintendents, although they could have been or could be. They are like others, but they treat their priest or bishop with more respect and in a more civilized manner. They work hard as a layman. They have their own little family. One job and no headaches. Now, why couldn't we, Armenians, bring our priests or our parishes to such a level, where there was more order and less headaches, instead of 1001 unnecessary problems. Why? What is the problem? Life as a layman gives them a chance to be a private person again, gives them a chance to be an Armenian . . . Probably, they teach their children a little better value system, about the Armenian Church and Armenians. And if they are not involved, I don't blame them, because of the great hurt that they have felt. . .. As a priest your life is not yours, but as a layman you dictate your own course of life. As a priest you are ever visible and are working for the church community and you are expected to be totally selfless for your community. This in itself can exhaust you mentally, emotionally and physically. It seems to me that we should not let young people come to the Armenian Church as an unprepared young priest and serve in that wild jungle. Q. What about married priesthood? A. You know, they asked Socrates, the great philosopher, "Should one get married or stay single?" Socrates was hesitant to answer. When they asked why he was hesitant, he said, "Because it does not make a difference whether one should be married or single . . .It does not really make a difference, because at the end both will regret." So it doesn't make a difference whether you choose to be a married priest or a celibate priest in the sense that Socrates implies. Now that I have past that stage of 40 or 50, I am convinced that it really doesn't make a difference. That's not the thing. A married priest has his own different way of life, family, responsibilities and so forth. On the other hand, who is the Armenian girl who will honestly marry a priest or a priest-to- be? Show me one . . .with all the headaches . . .that girl must be crazy if she does. The difficulties that marriage will bring will prevent him from fulfilling some of his duties. But a celibate priest, might have a better chance to serve his church. The question of marriage or celibacy is just like Socrates's anecdote, "It doesn't make a difference." The wise person will understand that that is not the question. In fact marriage could be "detrimental to the survival of the Armenian Church, just as the Catholic Church now feels the effects of that. Therefore, the Catholic Church is letting hundreds and hundreds of priests leave the priesthood and their excuse is marriage . . . nonsense. . . that is not the reason. Marriage will hurt his priesthood, in some cases it may help him. As Tiran Srpazan Nersoyan used to say, "Will marriage all of a sudden make a person wiser?" . . . No, marriage will just give him some physical satisfaction, perhaps nothing else . . . So, therefore, the question is not married or celibate priesthood. The question is the priest and his preparation. Q. What would you say to a young person who is contemplating to become a priest, celibate or married, but is unable to make a decision? A. His timely choice will be to take his bag and go to a monastery and serve there as a teacher or administrator; live there in that community until certain urges come to nil and until he is prepared. This is the way I think a priest should be prepared. If, however, he feels that marriage will not hinder his service to the church and his community, and if he finds the person of his heart, and if this person honestly, 100% honestly, agrees that "Yes, my husband will be a priest and I will help him to the best of my ability and I know that he will have 1001 headaches" then fine, let him get married. Then marriage will not be a hindrance. In fact, it may be an asset in that case. But, you cannot find an Armenian girl who will get married with an Armenian priest, with such a spirit and honestly. Which Armenian girl in her right mind will do this? And if she does, I bet you after the honeymoon, things will change because she is more down to earth, and she will pull him to the earth and she will want all the material things . . . all those material things which will be against his own profession. This type of a wife will be a disaster, both to the priest and the parish. It would be a scandal to her husband, to the parish and to herself. . . I know such a woman . . . I know such a wife. I know women who are wives of priests . . . they got married just because they fell in love or something with that deacon and zoooom. . . After the honeymoon things change, because she is more materialistic. . . she is not Gomidas Vartabed. She doesn't want a husband with 1001 problems, a husband who is working for a different "world" than hers. Now, after the honeymoon she creates such a disaster . . . well, there fails the marriage. . .there fails the priesthood. . . Q. Where does the church hierarchy fall in this picture? A. Well, I would rather not comment on this. All I can say is that the hierarchy did fall short of supporting the priest in his turmoil. Only a few members of the hierarchy are some source of inspiration or motivation, the rest barely provided basic support and guidance. To bring this conversation into a conclusion, I would say that proper preparation of our priests is extremely important on the one hand and the respect, support and cooperation of the parish on the other. =================================================== _ _ _ _ _ |_| ___ _| | ___ _ _ _ | | | | | | _ / _ \ / _ | / _ \ | | | | | | | |_| |_| || |_ | | | || |_| || |_| || |_| |_| | \_________/\___||_| |_| \___/ \___/ \_________/ View Of The Armenian Church ===================================================